TSCC’s season two first episode was pretty depressing for a new viewer, even if exciting for those who saw season one. That might have turned off some viewers.

And since it was a premiere, I think what happened is that people who hadn’t seen season one tuned in, didn’t know what was going on, and thus had no reason to watch episode two.

So I wouldn’t take that particular drop as indicative of anything in general. The problem with the show is the bleeding of viewers and the increase in critical comments even among more or less fans.

As for the Friday move, the problem again is that it was expected to lose numbers by that move, but then it kept bleeding numbers because the first four episodes of the back nine were extremely slow and did nothing to move the story along. So even more people who were not hardcore fans abandoned ship.

Everybody, even the hardcore fans, pretty much admit now that it was a bad mistake for Josh to continue the “Crazy Sarah” stuff after a two month hiatus. What they’re doing in the current episodes they should have done immediately on return from the hiatus. In fact, we were promised the back nine would be better – and the first four simply weren’t.

Worse, I think this whole “submarine” two parter will prove to be a mistake. While there is talk on the official writer’s blog about how submarine movies are always “cool”, this again reveals the detachment of the writers from the real world of “Terminator”. “Cool” isn’t important. We need story arc movement.

Had the submarine story been told a half dozen episodes ago, maybe after it was revealed why Jesse was here at all, that might have made some sense. Now it just wastes more screen time on back story when people want the current story moved along.

Not to mention that nobody really cares WHY Jesse is doing what she’s doing. She’s not a character that needs “development” – she’s a character that needs killing off. They need Derek to put a bullet in her and get on with it.

I have a theory that people tune in to watch week two because of what they saw in week one. Yet here, Ep. 2 was down about 500,000 viewers from Ep. 1, so the first episode of the season must not have been what those viewers were looking for.

But clearly, the thing that has hurt the live viewing numbers more than anything was the move to Friday night. I’d be interested in knowing if the numbers for the various online methods of viewing went up about the same time. Just curious.

You said: “The DVD set didn’t sell well. It didn’t sell bad, but it didn’t sell well. There is nothing to point to TSCC doing anything but digging its own grave.”

How many sets did it actually sell?

They also told the writers to produce more stand-alone episodes. A good idea? No.

So to be honest, what motivation did Friedman have for listening to them this time?

How different sources can give different numbers if all numbers come from same company (nielsen)? maybe someone made a mistake.. anyway..

i have another stupid question. Isn’t it better if we have two (or more) independent companies measuring tv ratings…

I don’t understand it either, but if FOX wants to keep the show close at hand but don’t want to immediately commit to another season, then why not wait until the January 2010 line-up?

In regards to how the wait would affect the audience and ratings; I assume it would allow the show to come back with a fresh start, putting all the failings of Season 2 in the past and allowing the show to start without that bad press dragging people’s expectations of it down. If the show can be presented in a different light, a better light, one that will appeal to a wider audience who want to see more of the original movie elements, then it should succeed where this season has failed.

Of course, I have no idea if this is a likely scenario. I’m sure Nick C will have something to say on the matter. Also, nobody besides those who actually work in the writer’s room or whatever can say that the blame belongs to one person alone. Neither your or me have any idea what happened behind those closed doors, or what pressures FOX may or may not have placed on Friedman that may or may not have narrowed his narrative options. Nobody knows, least of all you.

Total 7.8

Av: 7.8/2= 3.9

your number in scoreboard above: 4.13

so either your av. number is wrong or the numbers for TSSC or Dollhouse (or both). Assuming your average and Dollhouse number is true than TSSC should have something 3.96.

Could you check these…

I can’t psychoanalyze the guy (like everyone wants to do with me over the Net). I just have to go by what ended up on the screen.

Jonathan, the “Terminator of the Week” problem was not a problem of too much action. That was exactly what Josh said at WonderCon and he’s totally wrong. The problem was that it WAS “Terminator of the Week”, i.e, they were stand alone episodes that did nothing to move the story forward. It’s not an either/or situation. As I pointed out, Fringe has action just about every week and STILL manages to move the overall arc forward, and STILL manages to tell a story which is mostly stand-alone in the main plot.

TSCC did manage to slip in a little moving of the overall story arc in most episodes, so I’m not too dogmatic about that. But the pacing still wasn’t fast enough. Many episodes really did nothing.

The main criticism I had for MANY episodes was the utter inconsistency of the Connors making the search for “The Turk” a top priority in season one, and then IGNORING the entire problem for every episode after episode one. The whole “3 dots” thing simply derailed that. Sarah went chasing after nothing at all, while at least three direct methods to find Weaver and “The Turk” existed: 1) followup on the nuclear plant incident, 2) follow up on Dr. Sherman, and 3) follow Ellison around. Any of those would have been a logical thing for the Connors to do – if the writers weren’t trying to tell stand alone episodes mandated by Fox.

If Thomas Dekker said the whole “Blood Wall” concept irritated the writers themselves. But it’s clear that Josh was behind that because that was the way he managed to push his “Crazy Sarah” obsession. So we can’t blame Fox for how the stand alone edict was HANDLED.

Josh has repeatedly said that he doesn’t believe in moving the story along quickly. That was his fundamental mistake – along with his “Crazy Sarah” obsession.

Again, I believe most of the episodes were fine, more or less, in terms of acting, directing, writing (except where the writers simply ignored reality or dropped matters that should have been dealt with), effects, etc. The problem was entirely that the overall story arc went no where any hardcore Terminator fan wanted to go and where it did go it went at the pace of a glacier.

You just can’t do that with what is supposed to be a sci-fi action adventure show.

The only episodes that really worked were “S&D”, “Mr. Ferguson”, and “Allison”.

“Allison” was useful because of the Cameron background mostly, but the same information could have been conveyed in ten minutes. It was great solely because of Summer Glau’s Emmy-quality acting.

While the other episodes you cite weren’t AWFUL, they did nothing to move the story along. They also did little to explore the characters, except to make Sarah ever more unlikable, and did nothing for character development. A latter exception would be “Goodbye” where we did see a smattering of smarts and maturity from John Connor.

Even “Self-Made Man” wasn’t all that significant, except in terms of the character exploration of Cameron. But even that wasn’t all to the good, since it re-emphasized Josh’s obsession with abusing the character by making her seem “suicidal” which in my view made no sense at all. The entire Stark subplot has since been dropped. It was basically another “Blood Wall” stand alone (Stark’s name was on the “Blood Wall”), so it did nothing to move the story along. Again, it’s only value was in the well-acted performances of Summer and the fellow who played Eric.

Veran: I can’t understand why a network would greenlight a third season, then bench it for another six months. Other people are complaining that a couple weeks off dropped the ratings. And I have to believe the two month hiatus really didn’t help. How is six or nine months going to help?

The show is what it is. While we can give Friedman credit for doing a pretty good job in season one, we really don’t know how much of the decisions made were all his, how many also involved John Wirth and James Middleton, how many involved pressure from Fox execs, how much oversight of the writers led to missed chances, and what he originally intended to do with the series.

I have to go by what he said – that he had a plan for season two and he executed it. So I have to assume that most of the problems were the result of his plan. Specifically, that the direction most of the episodes took, the vastly overdone “Crazy Sarah” character development, the poor pacing, etc. are all on him.

In any event, he’s the show runner. The buck stops there.

He doesn’t have to be fired. He can simply say “mea culpa, we’ll do it differently next season” – and say HOW in a manner we – and the Fox execs – can believe in.

But again, as of two weeks ago at WonderCon, he wasn’t having any of that.

On the other hand, your violent hate for Josh Friedman taints your objectivity.

The truth is that, as good as this season has been (and hopefully will be), it still wasn’t what we hoped for. And like you said; people on the wiki have trouble accepting that something is wrong with the entire season. I had trouble accepting it, but looking back I felt something “shift” with Automatic For The People. Something didn’t feel right about the show from there on, and that feeling only got worse with time.

I like to watch the season over and over, I’m that kind of obsessive person, but when I get to an episode like “Strange Things Happen At The One-Two Point” I find myself far from motivated. But do not mistake me; this season and its episodes have been good and well worth watching and repeating, but it just wasn’t what we were promised.

Now, I stand by my conviction that if FOX decides for some miraculous reason to renew TSCC for a third season, we’ll see an entirely new and far better show than we’ve seen before. You say Josh is an idiot. I say rewatch the first season and Samson & Delilah, then tell me he’s an idiot. Maybe he needs someone on his shoulder to help him with certain creative decisions, maybe not. I don’t want to slag the guy off because he is fully capable of making this show a phenomenon, and has proven that with past episodes.

I just think maybe he needs a little guidance, but cutting him out of this show would be a bad idea. Very bad idea. Maybe he can step down and take an advisory and writing capacity, as opposed to a position where he makes all the big decisions. Either way, I think this show should (and hopefully will) be retooled in the third season and brought back to the core themes of the films. It needs to be given a (forgive the pun) “reboot”.

So say what you will about Friedman, because it won’t subtract from the fact that this guy has the talent to bring us what we want from the show.

@Nick C: I have a hypothetical question for you.

I know TSCC will very likely have to find another network after Season 2, and I still believe it will (be it Sci-Fi or CW or wherever). But I still can’t help but wonder…

…if FOX were, to everyone’s surprise, greenlight a third season (despite the ratings); why would they do this and what would be the terms/requirements/conditions of this renewal? Would it be possible that FOX will greenlight a third season but bench it until January 2010, hoping that some distance from its earlier failures will give it a chance to bounce back?

Just humour me here, don’t throw some crappy “it won’t happen, so there” retort.

It’s hard to keep a serialized storyline show, when the plot continues. No one can tune in half-way into season 2, and understand much of what’s going on, but that’s not the writing team, it’s the writing style they chose to tell the story.

24 on the other hand, has such a plot that keeps progressing, but they have action 90% of the time. TSCC has a story, but that’s the main point to the whole show, it’s not a terminator of the week show, and people even complained about that, until JF responded, and now they complain there’s not enough actions. It’s impossible to satisfy everyone I guess…

And blaming the drop on midterms? Please…

None of which matters anyway. The point of the producer of a show is that he is supposed to keep ratings up NO MATTER WHAT IS GOING ON – outside of thermonuclear war or a Presidential assassination or 9/11. In other words, the show is supposed to attract viewers regardless of the competition or external events.

Again, the point of Fox putting it on Mondays was that it was the only show that could have had a chance of surviving there IF the show had lived up to the Terminator franchise reputation.

It didn’t. It’s that simple.

Episode one of season 2 was the sort of episode EVERY episode (or every two episodes, at least) should have been. If Josh had done that, he’d have kept his 6 million viewers, and it would be renewed.

The long, drawn-out, completely nonsensical “three dots” and ‘Blood Wall” sub-plots were what really killed the show. To some degree, that was partly Fox’s fault, since they mandated more “stand-alone” episodes. But you can do stand-alones and move along the overall story arc. Fringe does. Leverage does. Dollhouse does. Josh didn’t. He saved all that until the last four or five episodes of the entire season.

And even that may prove to be bad news. The whole Jesse “submarine” story – a TWO-PARTER no less! – may prove to be another waste of time exploring a character who the fans want to see killed sooner rather than later, just like the whole Riley subplot was a massive waste of time just to set up Cameron, the show’s most liked character, to be messed with at season’s end.

I don’t see how that would be possible. TSCC could break 4.5 million for the series finale, but that’s too late. If all the episodes on Fridays averaged 4.5 million then it’d could be back. Getting stomped on by “Howie Do It” every week will not renew a scripted program.

Out of curiosity, what were the DVR numbers like on Monday? On Fridays it bumps them up by 35% (so far).

TSCC could have been a huge hit if it had more or less followed the Terminator movie “formula”. Naturally, there would have had to be some obvious changes since there’s no way it could have had the huge special effects. But then T-1 didn’t have that many huge effects when it came out – T-2 was the one that spent money. For it’s budget, TSCC had good special effects – they just didn’t destroy ten or fifteen cop cars at once like T-2 did.

If TSCC had spent most of its time on the core “functions” of the Terminator concept – i.e., dodging killer robots and stopping Skynet, plus added in the exploration of the relationship between John Connor and the “good Terminator” like T-2 and T-3 did, and did so with sufficient action each week, along with good acting, clever writing, good direction, i.e., the “basics”, it could have done well.

Instead, Friedman turned it into a “family drama” focused on conflicts between Sarah and John Connor, plus an extended collapse into paranoid insanity on the part of Sarah Connor. The latter was even inconsistent – one week she’s hallucinating, the next she’s fine, followed by another bout of insanity. It made no sense and nobody cared except the hardcore Sarah fans who shared Friedman’s obsession with the character.

James Cameron put Sarah Connor in a mental hospital for PART of his film – not the WHOLE film. And once she was out, she didn’t keep tripping out.

The most liked character on the show, Cameron, the “good Terminator”, was provided with a glitch in episode one that made her fundamentally defective, then sidelined for most of the season in favor of Sarah (except for two excellent episodes that explored the character’s background and interaction with humans). Now the glitch has been declared “permanent”, which makes her almost useless unless it’s somehow “repaired” in the next four episodes.

Anybody familiar with the Terminator franchise can’t see anything of Terminator in this mess. Anybody just vaguely familiar with Terminator watching the show for the first time can’t understand it at all. So a lot of Terminator fans came, saw and left, while the wider audience never watched more than one episode.

This leaves only the hardcore Sarah Connor fans who see absolutely nothing wrong in what Friedman did, despite the fact that the end result is going to be cancellation.

Again, the show is most respects was perfectly fine – i.e., the “basics”, again. It was the overall story arc and the pacing that did it in.

And that’s quite fixable – IF Friedman would admit that and do it. But now it’s too late to start that in the last five episodes.

It was heavily marketed. Anyone who tries to say the show wasn’t marketed is blind, deaf, and honestly ignorant.

The show failed due to the fans leaving the show. Blame it on the move to Friday if you want. I’ve heard too many people who watched the show claim it just went into the toilet in quality. It’s funny how that mirrors the bleeding of viewers. HEROES is the same thing. People say the quality has dropped, and wow what a surprise so have the viewing numbers.

The DVD set didn’t sell well. It didn’t sell bad, but it didn’t sell well. There is nothing to point to TSCC doing anything but digging its own grave.

Accept it. Move on. Enjoy the last 4 episodes.

Let’s see, the show was even popular in the beginning of the season 2. Then breaks + constant schedule problems, caused it to bleed viewers… It wasn’t TSCC making a bad show, it was bad advertisement, bad scheduling, and bad timing too. It performed well for a while, and then once it moved to Friday, it started really dying, and that’s expected.

Viewers 000 Live+SD

6328 Sep 8-14 (Premiere 5th place)
5564 Sep 15-21 (8th)
5887 Sep 22-28 (9th)
5374 Sep 29-Oct5 (10th; I dunno midterms?)
6365 Oct 6-12 (7th; MLB NLCS games)
– break?? 2 weeks –
5024 Oct 20-26 (15th, blame the break)
– another 1 week break?? –
5168 Nov 3-9 (13th)
5153 Nov 10-16 (15th)
5094 Nov 17-23 (elections)
4571 Nov 24-30 (Thanksgiving)
5823 Dec 1-7
5250 Dec 8-14 (winter break exams)
5070 Dec 15-21 (winter break begins)
– season 2 continues later, 2 month break
– season 2 continues on Fridays 8 PM, few heard about it
3711 Feb 9-15 (show returns)
3862 Feb 16-22
3377 Feb 23-Mar 1
2897 Mar 2-8 (spring break, watchmen premiere, since its friday)
3500 Mar 13 (some colleges go on spring break, some return from)

As you can see, it kept a fairly good ~5.2-6.3 million viewers, until it was moved. 2-3 breaks caused it to drop ranking a lot. Then the move to Friday, dropped it another million+. If it builds up to lets say 4.5 million, or 5 million by season finale, I think it will bring on season 3…

Agree disagree??

If Dollhouse gets renewed it will be bacause Fox sees potential in its future in terms of growing its audience. Short of a miracle its hard to see it getting the kind of numbers that make it an obvious and instant choice for a second season. I would also say that I think that the networks get an unfair wrap when it comes to pulling shows too early.

but dollhouse isnt doing great and its on the bubble according to others
and its only 6 weeks in
i do appreciate the responses
especially by holly
i feel i have a better understanding about whats goin on
with decisions networks make on shows
not that i agree
again thx for listening and commenting on my crazy rantings

i guess im secretly hoping my shows will be one of those brerakout ones marty was talking about

T4 happens to be a smash hit with extended strong box office. Public appetite turns out to be consistently strong enough that T1-T3 are re-released with additional Whatevers, maybe there’s merchandising, and then all that’s over and the fans still want more. Where do they get more? By watching TSCC, because everything else is stuff they’ve already recently seen. It’s why people buy “Star Trek” paperbacks and read/write fan fic.

Anything short of this, and the movie’s performance (not release) has precisely zero impact on the fate of the TV show.

Two things make people lose objectivity about any particular show/movie/play they either like or don’t like. The first is confusing a show that suits their personal taste with a well-done production. The second is forgetting that no matter how well-done it is, or how much you like it, this is show ***business*** we’re talking about here.

Barring subsidies and other feats of accounting, at present TV shows survive or don’t because of the ratings for live viewing. If the advance publicity for the movie gets people to sit down and watch while the show airs live, then the movie’s release (not performance) will help.

Time alone will tell.

still dont think 1 3 wks is long enough to proclaim a hit or a miss

especiallly moving the night
my own opinion

thx for the linksbtw

hard to see the shows u like get canceled
guess someone is watching those..

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=serenity.htm

What Firefly did was sell a lot more DVDs than expected. That helped push the greenlight decision on the movie. Which didn’t sell many tickets, but did OK in DVD sales.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117901954.html?categoryid=13&cs=1

But all that means is that a low-rated television show that did well on DVD turned into a film…that did OK on DVD. Not in theatres.

The Firefly/Serenity experience didn’t change anyone’s mind about what ratings mean in terms of long-term profits. I’ll be surprised if Dollhouse does, either.

Sure, everyone was hoping for a Star Trek story (the original movie, which wasn’t a critical success, made 3 times its production costs, and launched a franchise of 10 profitable films so far). But it didn’t happen.

Network execs are very aware of both the Star Trek story and the Firefly story, and the lessons to be learned from each. That’s why Moonlight isn’t still on the air.

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2007/11/18/moonlight-ratings-2007-2008/1820

Fox would be insane to take the risk that a show that has dropped from 3.0+ to a 1.0 is going to build an audience because there’s absolutely nothing there to suggest that’s going to happen. And whilst critics haven’t buried the show it doesn’t even have the advantage that Seinfeld in particular had in that critics loved it and the word of mouth was excellent. There just isn’t word of mouth for Terminator there’s absolutely no reason to think its going to trend upwards.

Right now the only reason people aren’t proclaiming that Dollhouse isn’t dead is because it *might* trend upward with the rest of its run and that combined with good word of mouth for the improving episode quality could save it. As it is no one in their right mind thinks TSCC is going to turn itself around now. It just doesn’t happen. Shows don’t drop this low and rebuild their audience. Modest or on the bubble shows can do it but 1.0 shows don’t.

or sienfild?

For what it’s worth, a cursory search will turn up such items as this: http://www.wtvr.com/Global/story.asp?S=7493990

‘Due to the ACC Basketball Tournament coverage on CBS 6 [WTVR], Friday’s (March 13, 2009) CBS 6 Primetime Programming including Ghost Whisperer, Flashpoint and Numbers will be available beginning Sunday, March 15, 2009 at 1:35AM.’

Anybody with me?

You might have a point if TSCC had been a success on Monday only to see a huge drop when it moved, but it was moved to Friday because it was failing on Monday.

Yes, next week is the Whedon-penned episode and yes, I totally agree that the ratings AFTER that episode will be the ones that will determine the fate of the show.

you mention TSCC but it was moved from monday to friday
how do u keep an audnince or grow one whenthe show is moved?

To fridays no less where number of viewers will be smaller as ppl go out
even i DVR the show and i love it
and of course as u told me above they dont count my viewing lol

i know iknow im part of the problem lolz

above i ment
ncis hasnt been a success til recntly
doing steady/average in ratings
but it was kept and now is doing well
now its found an audince

also nowdays 13 episodes is what a studio orders=used to be up to 30
right?
i think what u are saying is that is enough time 13 weeks
and im saying i dont think it is especially for a seriel show

with all the choices viewers have these days-seems to me networks should be sticking with shows and banking on quality rather than quantity and let a show find an audince
back the horse they bet on so to speak
seems these days they shoot a shotgun and hope to hit the target