I got a few e-mails, along the lines of HEY, where is your story about how Joss Whedon is now saying there is hope for a season two, and don't you find it interesting that less than a week ago, he was pessimistic?
The truth is, barring a miraculous ratings turnaround, I don't think there's really going to be anything new to say until FOX makes its announcements on May 18. But here is a good link to that story from Korbi Ghosh:
To be clear, there has been no official pick up, but Joss is optimistic that the network -- filled with execs who love the show, he says -- will be looking at the full picture, including iTunes purchases, DVR playback, hulu streaming, etc., and he reassured fans that the people who canned his previous FOX TV endeavor “Firefly” are not a part of the team that will decide if “Dollhouse” returns.
And here is a link to the same information but this time from James Hibberd:
“So right now I’ve gone from a sort of place of ‘You don’t even care, nobody loves me’ [laughs] to a place of God, I can’t believe I’m saying this ... hope.
“We might actually get the chance to do what we’re dying to do, which is tell more of these stories with these crazy people because we have so many more yet to come,” Whedon said of the series in which Eliza Dushku (Buffy) plays an “active” whose memory is wiped and replaced to suit various “engagements.”
“Basically it’s what happens in the next few weeks; we have a new lead-in (replacing 'Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles'), we have a few more episodes coming up — whether it’s 12 or 13 — they are fierce,” he added. “They are ridiculous; I am so proud of them. We’re going to go out this season with a bang, and hopefully we’ll get to come back for Season 2.”
I don't really find the change from pessimism to optimism surprising at all. First, I really believe that FOX hasn't made its decision yet. The numbers point to it getting cancelled, but maybe the execs at FOX Studios like the thought of Dushku in dominatrix gear and other lingerie so much, they will discount it heavily to the FOX broadcast network. Unless there are a couple hundred thousand pre-orders of the DVD before May 18, I don't see that happening, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.
Secondly, there's no upside to Whedon being pessimistic in public and there is downside. It bums out those working on the show and it can't make the studio or network happy (even if he was just being honest about how he felt at the time, which I'm sure he was). But optimism makes more sense. There might not be huge upside to it, but there's no downside to it either. Basically he's saying, "it could happen and I'm crossing my fingers that it does."
That doesn't mean he won't bust out with a "send dolls to FOX campaign!" sometime before May 18, but nothing he's doing right now strikes me as trying to whip fans into a frenzy in hopes of saving the show. Instead, he's merely trying to give the people working on the show, and the fans some hope. Without the frenzy. Nothing wrong with that.
Robert,
I know this is off topic and I’m not sure if it was you or Bill, but a few days ago we discussing broadcast schedules in different time zones. I was wonder if you could educate me as to why the networks broadcast at different times in different zones?
thanks
coolbreeze, I honestly don’t know. I suspect it’s some legacy thing around the number of feeds networks wanted to have, that they haven’t broken out of yet. but that’s just speculation on my part.
I, as a man, don’t even like the thought of Dushku in lingerie. She’s blah to me.
I always see it as a bad sign for a show when the internet starts rallying behind it. It means your show is pretty much screwed most of the time. Which is sad, because I love Chuck. Lol.
“couple hundred thousand pre-orders of the DVD”
That’s not exactly impossible. Couple hundred? I mean, Firefly sold millions and Buffy is still selling, so…
I really hope there’s a second season. I’m loving the show right now.
Eliza also talks about it.
http://scifiwire.com/2009/04/dollhouses-eliza-dushku-o.php
“Basically it’s what happens in the next few weeks; we have a new lead-in…”
And that, of course, is the source of his optimism. He can’t change Dollhouse, but with a new lead in, its the one shot they have to trying to bump the numbers leading into the finale just enough that FOX stops swinging the ax.
Robert,
thanks, any idea how they got into that format in teh first place?
This is EXACTLY the same statement that Zack Stentz, one of the writers on TSCC, put out for TSCC – that Fox execs love the show, that they’re looking at all the viewing options (DVR, Hulu, etc.) and that it’s not the same exec crowd that canceled Firefly.
This is scripted Fox spin, nothing more.
Today I read an interview with Brian Austin Green, where he tries to spin how Friedman’s horrible story arc pacing is somehow good, crap he obviously got directly from Friedman.
The amusing thing about believing Friedman knew what he was doing is that Shirley Manson revealed in HER interview that when she was hired to play Catherine Weaver, Friedman admitted to her that he DID NOT KNOW WHAT he was going to do with that character. He had absolutely no idea. It was pure “stunt casting” – then he made up a whole story line around her that BRIAN is now touting as Friedman’s big plan for season 3!
It’s all bullshit from Friedman. Friedman has been bullshitting his cast and crew – and the fans – from day one.
Well it’s totally different than TSCC. FOX already made a decision about TSCC. FOX hasn’t made a decision about DOLLHOUSE, and as I’ve been saying for what a week now? It’s 50/50.
They wanted DOLLHOUSE to do a portion of what CBS was pulling, and it has actually done right well in regards to their expectations (their words). So the numbers aren’t bad. Now it’s not pulling 75% of GHOST WHISPERER, but it’s pulling 75% of FLASHPOINT. So if that was the number, that’s a realistic goal.
The show has a chance. The numbers are Friday numbers and many people including those running this site lose track of that. The index doesn’t work for Fridays something they’ve never all out admitted. So the truth is they don’t have any idea if the numbers are bad enough to cancel.
I know the show is profitable. That to me means it stands a higher chance of renewal than others.
I find it interesting that both sources neglected to include this part of the interview:
“[The chances [for renewal] are] not very good but in limbo,” Whedon said in a group interview Tuesday night in Hollywood, where he was sitting on a panel at the Paley Festival presentation for his Dr. Horrible’s Sing-Along Blog. “Obviously our numbers are pretty soft, and there it is, but we live in hope. I’m really proud of the episodes that are coming out. More than that, I can’t really ask.
http://scifiwire.com/2009/04/joss-whedon-speculates-on.php
Nick C, that doesn’t sound right. Dollhouse numbers aren’t significantly better than TSCC’s, even for Friday, even though they are better. The profitability argument sounds OK, if it’s true. But I don’t think Robert will agree that the index doesn’t work for Fridays.
I’d like to see you and Robert argue that one out here.
My point was that the same excuses are being used for Dollhouse and TSCC – and they sound like excuses that violate the fundamental issue of the numbers. Even though TSCC has worse numbers, Dollhouse numbers are nothing to base a renewal on.
If it’s profitable now and you renew and the numbers drop again next season, where does that leave the show? Unprofitable. So the argument has to be whether Fox feels that renewing a profitable show with only, what, 3 or 4 episodes left is worth it to get a show that probably turns unprofitable next season.
Sounds like a bad play to me if I was a Fox exec. I’d rather end it now and look for something more likely to do better next season.
Richard, Robert and Bill actually say that the index threshold for Friday shows is lower. That’s why Numb3rs got renewed last year even though it was below the .92 cancel/renewal line. The question isn’t whether Friday shows can survive with a lower index, it’s how much lower.
I know that, Holly, that’s not what Nick C is claiming here. He’s claiming the index doesn’t work at all.
Quote: “The numbers are Friday numbers and many people including those running this site lose track of that. The index doesn’t work for Fridays something they’ve never all out admitted.”
Plus, Dollhouse is at .60 and TSCC was at .47 – those are WAY below .92. So I can’t see how even “profitability” for another 3 shows can matter unless Fox really believes the show will trend up NEXT SEASON (since it’s unlikely to trend up much the remainder of this season.)
To me, .60 IS “much lower” than .92, let alone 1.00. A show at .67 did get renewed because it was offered to Fox at a much lower rate. Can Dollhouse do that?
Richard, it doesn’t work. The index is .92 for shows to be considered “safe.” Right now NBC has shows above .92 that are drastically on the bubble. Why? Because of Leno. So right now the index doesn’t work for NBC either.
We don’t know where the bar is set. For CBS, ABC, and FOX the .92 still works for Sunday through Thursday. Friday is an unknown.
We know that CBS renewed two shows that got a .77 and .76 respectively last season. They canceled a show on Friday that got a .71. (GHOST WHISPERER, NUMB3RS, and MOONLIGHT incase you’re interested). Incidentally their current lineup is pulling a .84 (better than last season), a .67 (yet the guys here guess a renewal), and a .74 (slight drop).
Over on FOX last season they renewed shows with a .81 and .90. However those two shows are currently pulling a .50 and .56 respectively. (DON’T FORGET THE LYRICS and ARE YOU SMARTER THAN A 5TH GRADER?) So obviously those shows aren’t even pulling the numbers they used to pull.
DOLLHOUSE is on the verge, but a decision hasn’t been made yet. I hear its future is tied to REMOTE FREE TV, and thus it’s not good, but we just don’t know.
A .60 is much better than .47. The .60 is as Whedon says “soft.” However they’re considering its renewal. Which means the index can’t obviously be working, because the .60 shouldn’t even mean consideration.
I won’t even get into Saturday night shows being renewed with .61s, etc.
Richard, also shows generally trend up in their 2nd and 3rd seasons. It’s at the 4th on where they historically lose viewers. Put it this way, DOLLHOUSE has only increased its quality. Will the DVD box set, word of mouth, actually showing something at the conventions, etc. help build an audience? I’d say it’s a safe bet if the show remains so cheap.
The reality is that unless FOX show the Ep 13/14, the show is cancelled. If they decide to pick up that episode, I’d say the chances are better than 50/50 for a renewal.
Mark, I’ve read the script. It’s not a “finale,” and thus it could easily be worked out to air it for the second season. Which is what I heard when I heard the talk of them not buying it for this season.
Robert, or anyone else who can answer this, does anybody know if non-tv viewing numbers matter more on a night like Friday where traditionally fewer people are watching television than other nights? Also is Joss telling the truth when he says its not the same group of executives that canned Firefly? Just looking for any hope at all, but don’t want to get too optimistic because I feel like Dollhouse will surely get canceled. Thanks
nick c., how in the whole wide world can you make a blanket claim that shows ‘generally tend up in their 2nd and 3rd seasons and lose viewers in the 4tn’???
I mean, I know you said ‘generally’, but even that cannot give a big enough buffer because that statement is simply false.
And don’t give me a list of shows that fit your example. I don’t want to hear it.
The truth is this: if you take ALL broadcast shows over the past half decade that have aired for more than one season, the largest group would be shows that decline EVERY SINGLE SEASON.
Ever heard of the law of diminishing returns?
“also shows generally trend up in their 2nd and 3rd seasons.”
Tell it to the Chuck, Pushing Daisies, TCSS, Dirty Sexy Money, Elli Stone, Lipstick Jungle, About Brian fans. They would love you to come in and make their numbers magically obey that generalization. A few really good shows can grow from a modest first season, but that is not the norm for the bottom feeders.
Hit shows are more likely trend up in their 2nd and 3rd seasons, because there are always people that will follow where the others go, just not to be left out.
With the current numbers of Dollhouse viewers they would be hard pressed to find one to follow.
The word of mouth depends very much on the mouth. Pushing Daisies fans, with their attitude that the show was to clever for the masses, insinuating that the people not watching where stupid sure went a long way to help the show. Whedonites are no better, with their mantra that Whendon is a genius, and people are to stupid to get it.